The sermon was split in two major parts: Alcohol mentioned in the Old Testament, the New Testament and of course the conclusion based on bible verses and common sense according to the speaker. I'll try to pass along his comments as accurate as possible from my notes. 24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25he said,
"Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."
Pastor's Comment: The bible says nothing good or bad regarding Noah getting drunk, but look at the result of the whole event. Certainly nothing good came from it...
My view: I agree with the above comment. In addition, obviously Noah drank more than he should have, but look at the reaction of his youngest son, instead of covering his father and keeping this shameful sight to himself, he went out to make this a public knowledge by telling his brothers, may be he even enjoyed the fact that he had some "juicy news" to share. So the final result, which is the pronouncement of the curse is not because of one wrong doing, but two. Other words, we can not only blame alcohol for the outcome.
Leviticus 10:8-11 Then the LORD said to Aaron, 9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and you must teach the Israelites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses."
Pastor's Comment: God gives the priests instruction not to drink when in service to Him. According to this verse we can assume that it's OK for the priests to drink when off duty.
My view: I agree with the comment 100%. The instructions not to consume alcohol are given for the time they perform their job as priests of the Most High. We can certainly see the logic behind this, but even if we didn't understand why they shouldn't drink wine, it doesn't matter, God says so and this should be enough for the priests.
Numbers 6:1-4 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, 3 he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. 4 As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.
Pastors's Comment: Nazirites were people totally committed to the Lord, they were to demonstrate complete dedication, they took a "vow of separation to the LORD" and therefore God instructs them to be sober at all times. The reason why they were not even allowed to eat the skins or the seeds of the grapes was the possibility of fermented grapes in such a hot climate in which they lived.
Deuteronomy 14:22-26 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
Pastor's Comment: No doubt, we should understand this verse as it reads: wine = alcoholic wine, and other fermented drinks... (I commend the pastor for showing this verse, most other preachers would not even mention it).
My view: I agree with the above comment. These instructions are given to the Israelites in connection of the tithe, which ultimately is a demonstration of faith that God is the provider in their lives and in this case is a cause of celebration and rejoicing. Some bible translations even say "wine or strong drink" some say "alcoholic drink" and some even say "wine or beer", my trusted Bulgarian bible says "спиртни пития" which means hard liquor. There's no question in my mind God authorizes the use of alcohol for celebration.
Pastor's Comment: This verse obviously implies alcoholic wine, what harm could drinking allot of grape juice do...
My view: I can 100% side with this comment.
Obvious Conclusion so far: Drinking is certainly mentioned in the bible and the bible does not condemn drinking of alcohol.
Now here comes the twist. In 1 Peter 2:9 we read the following: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light", which is directed to us born again Christians.
Pastor's Comment: We're called to be God's priests 24/7, therefore we need to keep clear mind and abstain from alcoholic drinks 24/7.
My view: While I agree that the new Christian is a disciple of Christ and a member of the priesthood of Christ, assuming that we're "on the job" 24/7 is a far stretch. Earlier we saw that even Aaron and his descendants who were priests ordained by God were given permission to have a drink when not in service. Based on this logic, we as priest have some time when we're "not in service" and we should be allowed to have an alcoholic beverage if we want to. Drinking would be prohibited only if we are Nazirites, but in order to become one, you first have to be a Jew.
The big question on everyone's mind (actually 3 questions on my mind) by this point is:
Didn't Jesus make water into wine?
Didn't He and His disciples have wine at the Last Supper?
Did Jesus drink alcoholic wine?
Truth is, the bible doesn't specify if in any of these cases it's spoken of grape juice or alcoholic wine. The pastor who preached the sermon as well as the denomination which he represents, believe the bible is talking about grape juice. I have a different opinion. Again, no one denies that the word for wine and grape juice in Greek language is the same. In this case the only option we have is to look at the context of the passage we read. It is my belief Jesus' first miracle, which he performed at the wedding at Cana was to turn water into ALCOHOLIC wine. Why? Look at the response of the master of banquet in John 2:10 "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now." The only reasonable explanation is, when a person is sober they can tell the difference between cheap wine and a good one, after they get drunk you can serve them any kind of wine and they'll be happy as long as it keeps coming. To me there's no doubt the wine was alcoholic.
How about the Passover meal commonly known as the Last Supper Jesus had with his disciples? There's no way anyone could know for sure what type of wine was on the table. The bible doesn't even give us the slightest clue. However, I do believe that the Jewish people managed to preserve many traditions unchanged for thousands of years. In fact because of their meticulous discipline and ability to follow traditions, we enjoy our bible today. Thank God for the Jewish people! Do your own research and you'll find out that the Jews up to this day always have kosher wine on the table for Passover meal, they call it Passover wine and yes, it is alcoholic wine.
Perhaps the most convincing evidence I've heard in the past and in this particular sermon, suggesting that Jesus always drank grape juice when scripture says wine, is found in your own heart. Can you imagine Jesus with a glass of scotch, beer or wine in his hand, waving at you and saying "come, I've prepared a place for you...". Of course not, we're talking about our God, our Saviour and I can not imagine Him in a state of drunkenness.
So, I believe everyone needs to make their own conclusion. Here's mine: It is clear that the bible points out to many occasions where alcoholic wine and other "strong drinks" were used, without suggesting that God condemned those who enjoyed these beverages. I don't believe that having a drink from time to time will have any effect on your salvation. You can be a Christian and have a so called "social drink". Problem comes from the fact that many people are not responsible and major, sometimes sad consequences come as a result of drinking. I believe that under no circumstances anyone should pray, read the bible, attend church services or even mention the name of God, unless they are completely sober with clear mind and heart. I do not advocate the use of alcohol, but would not condemn it either, just as we see it in the bible.
George
Posts
11 comments:
After reading your blog about alcohol and its place in our lives as Christians, I would like to respond with some thoughts and maybe different opinions or views.
If we look at the Bible, we sure agree there is plenty of situations, where it's more then clear, that alcohol was known and used in that time: 1 Sam.1:14.....Genesis 19:32....2 Sam 13:28. We have a few verses warning us about wine: Prov.20:1.....Prov.23:20......23:31, Prov.31:7. One of the strong verses....Isaiah 56:12.
Some of the advice giving verses..... Ephes. 5,:15-18..... Rom. 14:21.... or on the other side advise to use a little wine....... 1Tim.5:23, but this one I question, because on sick stomach alcohol may not be the best solution, I think this is the grape juice they are talking about. However, I believe that the message in the Bible for us is rather not advising us to drink wine, instead warning us from using wine. By this I am not saying anybody drinking socially or for your health (you decide when it's for your health) will not make it to heaven. On the other side I am not saying it's OK to drink occasionally. The decision is surely different for many people.
We know there are some benefits of drinking, for example red wine. On the other hand the negative impact of drinking (excessively) is very real. The point I would like to make is regarding the wedding in Cana, where Jesus is involved. In this case I am sure (but wiling to listen to others) this is a grape juice not alcoholic wine, the Bible talks about.
Let's us look at the verse John 2:1-10. The story starts pretty much with problem....
They are running out of wine. So at this point, they are drinking already for a while, we assume. There is 6 stone jars, each holds about 20 to 30 gallons. Gallon is about 4 litres.
Depends if it's US or Imperial, but about 4 litres anyway, 6 stone jars each 20 to 30 gallons it's about 80 to 120 litres per jar times 6 = 480 to720 litres of wine! They were filled to top. How big was the wedding? 50, 100, 500 guests? Remember, they run out of wine, so if we think this was alcoholic wine, some of them may be "loaded" already. If there was 50 people attending, they would have another 9.6 to 14.4 litres of wine per person to drink. If there were 500 of them (I doubt but possible) they have now 0.9 liter to 1.4 litres per person. If they were drunk already, the guests would not probably stop till all of the good wine saved till now is finished. I expect most of then laying on the floor after they are finished with all the wine. Now what is Jesus’ role? Is he offered good wine too? What is his response? He is a guest after all too... Is he watching the human destruction after they consume all of this wine? What if some "righteous Pharisee" looked inside and ask: Teacher, isn't it written.... Do not join those who drink to much wine....and you made all of this wine for these people to get in this state?
Jesus was Son of God, He was God himself even at this wedding. The possibility he would help these people get to this point, were all over the Bible warns about, it's simply unrealistic for me. And in fact it would be in total contradiction with everything that Jesus did, while he was on this earth. For those reasons, I am pretty sure, that the wine at the wedding was actually grape juice. And after all. the point of this story is not as much about what kind of wine is involved here, rather it's pointing to one of the many miracles Jesus did while he was on this earth. I would love to see other comments on this issue.
Ludvik
I really appreciate your comments, Ludvik. I would like to respond very quickly. Your assumptions are very logical, but before you come to a conclusion, please consider the following:
1. This wedding takes place in a village. Up to this day in most countries around the world when a person from a small community is getting married, the whole community is invited. This could easily mean 500 people and more. Now, lets consider relatives who come from far to celebrate with the family. I’m not going to speculate with any numbers here, but I would like to suggest there were many people present for this celebration.
2. The bible doesn’t specify how long the festivities lasted. Again in many cultures around the world, weddings last 3 days or even longer.
3. My final, but probably most important point – The bible doesn’t say the wine in all six jars was consumed. The story ends with the comment made by the master of ceremonies and consequently the disciples believing in Jesus, because of this miracle.
In short, what we don’t know is:
How many people were present…
How much time they had to drink all that wine…
Did they finish the wine at all…
The logic you are using can only be applied if we knew the answers to these questions. We can not draw conclusion based on speculation.
I received other comments via email, so looks like I’ll write “Christians and Alcohol” (Part 2) to address some of the questions and elaborate on John 2:1-12.
George
Hello George,
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject of alcohol. For me it is particularly important to find the truth since, as you already may know, I am one of the many people whose family has been destroyed primarily because of alcohol abuse.
So here are a few thoughts that I would like to share with you. After reading your comments on Levitivus 10:8-11 I see that you agree that priests should abstain from alcohol use at least when performing their duties in church. That would include the ceremony of communion. And since this ceremony is a replica of what took place during the last supper, if Jesus was drinking alcoholic wine, then it would seem that God is contradicting Himself by instructing us to do the same during communion. I would appreciate your comments as we try to find the truth together.
God Bless you!
Reneta
Hi George,
I have some thoughts to add to my previous comment on the subject of alcohol. Although some people may say that drinking alcohol in moderation is good for health I'm sure you'll agree that "moderation" means different thing to different people.
In addition, God said that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and so I think we should keep our "temples" holy always!
God Bless!
Reneta
Reneta,
My heart goes out to anyone whose family has been affected by alcohol abuse. This is why I started and finished the article making a clear statement that I do not promote the use of alcohol.
Now regarding your comment on communion and my response to it: You seem to associate the Levite priests of the Old Testament with the New Testament Covenant. The last Passover meal Jesus had with his disciples establishes the New Covenant, which is binding upon Christians and no one else. Having said that, it is wrong to assume that rules and regulations given to the priesthood of Israel in the Old Covenant are transferrable into the New Covenant, Jesus made with us. Secondly, Jesus had this last Passover meal with his disciples in a private atmosphere, not in a synagogue. We do this today in remembrance of Jesus, Paul adds “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.” 1 Cor 11:26. Technically we don’t need to celebrate communion in church, we can do it in our homes with other believers as often as we like as long as, Paul says we don’t do it in “unworthy manner” or we “will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord”
No, Jesus does not contradict Himself, if He had an alcoholic wine at the Last Supper. The bible doesn’t specify if there was grape juice or alcoholic wine present on the table, but we know for sure the Jewish people still have Passover Meals at their homes in a private atmosphere, just like Jesus did, and they have been using alcoholic wine for as far back in history as you can search.
There’s something else interesting I’d like to point out. Paul is unhappy with the believers in Corinth and he gives them warnings regarding the way they celebrate Communion, in effort to correct their ignorance. He says “One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?” 1 Cor 11:21-22. This tells me that obviously people understood communion to be a party, and Paul corrects that. But notice that he doesn’t say “don’t you know, you’re not supposed to drink alcoholic wine at communion?”, if this was important he would have mentioned it, while he’s educating them regarding this ceremony… If he’s completely against alcohol, he would have said “Don’t you go drinking at home either.”
Again, these are just clues. We have no absolute biblical proof if alcoholic wine was present at the Passover meal Jesus shared with His disciples. This will remain one of the mysteries in the bible.
George
Well, George... I don't know what to say. Since I am the pastor who delivered that sermon I must say that I'm really flattered that you had taken some time to review my whole sermon and put it on this blog. As I said, I'm really flattered.
However, with or without intent, you missed some very crucial points from my sermon. First of all, the way you went from 1 Timothy to 1 Peter is something I'd never done. There is a huge gap between these two verses (so many things are just missing here which creates a misunderstanding on what I had said or even more so on what the Bible says). Secondly, I clearly pointed out that the Bible condemns drunkenness and not the moderate usage of alcohol. Thirdly, then I asked a question which went some thing like, "Ok, if we see all this, then why does our church discourages its members of taking even a sip of alcohol?"
Then, I opened 1 Peter 2:9 and said (among other things) that God's will for us is to have our minds clear the whole time so we can be effective witnesses for Him. I also said that the whole epistle to Hebrews clearly teaches that we are in the covenant relationship with God, which makes us like Nazirites who were in that kind relationship with God and who were to abstain from any alcohol at all times. That's why I said that we are 24/7 in God's service. And if we honestly read the Bible, we'll find that can never be a time in our lives when we can say, "Now it's the time for me to put God aside for a bit and just enjoy myself"!
If you also remember, I also said in my sermon that God never condemned king David for having many wives, although His will has always been one man - one wife. I also said that neither God nor the apostles never condemned slavery, even though is obvious that the social order of that kind has never been and can never be God's will because it goes against His character. Nevertheless, He allowed some things. Like He allows evil today even though He admonishes us to abstain from evil.
As far as the Lord's Supper is concerned, I had also made a clear theological point on what I believe alcohol had not been used as a symbol for the Christ's holy blood. Whenever a symbol is used in the Bible, it has a specific meaning. For instance, the Jews were not to break a bone in a Passover lamb, because that lamb represented our true Passover lamb - Jesus Christ - whose bones (not a single one!) were not broken on the cross. I had also pointed out that the yeast was to be removed completely from the households during the Feast of Unleavened breads. Why? Because it was usually associated with sin and Jesus Christ (our Passover lamb) was sinless. I had also said that we practice baptism by immersion because Romans 6 gives the clear symbolism for baptism. And then I said that as the Christ's body cannot be represented with bread that has a little bit of yeast inside, in the same way His precious blood cannot be represented with something that, even in the smallest dosage, can blur our sight and create so much harm. And then I made that point of trying to imagine Jesus with a glass of wine in one hand and a cigarette in the other saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (If you also remember, that was the question I had asked one guy years ago in his own house, which probably led him to rejection of both tobacco and alcohol.)
That's why I strongly believe that God's will for me is to abstain from alcohol completely.
So, George, once again, I'm really flattered that you decided to review one of my sermons here, but in all fairness you should have done that properly.
Best regards,
Ed
Ed, thank you for your response. First let it be noted that this article was not an attempt to represent your sermon (now you’re really flattering yourself). I simply heard an interesting sermon and I wanted to publish my thoughts on the subject. I simply used some of the verses and comments you made to the best of my recollection, and I hope you don’t mind and if you do, just let me know and I will remove your comments.
I did not record the sermon, just took some notes and again I am expressing my view as a listener rather than reporting the event as a journalist. If you want your sermon published correctly word to word, I encourage you to upload the transcript on your church’s website. Then you can not accuse anyone of not “properly” and “fairly” representing your words.
You made a statement that no Christian should ever say "Now it's the time for me to put God aside for a bit and just enjoy myself"! – I agree with you. I also don’t believe that God meant “you can put Me aside for a moment now” when He allowed the Levite priests to have a drink when not on duty at the temple. I don’t think Paul meant that Deacons in the Christian church put God aside every time they have an occasional drink either. Having a glass of wine does not equal “putting God aside”, this would be an assumption, not a biblical statement.
As a listener of your sermon, I can say that the most convincing argument you presented against drinking was the impossibility to picture Jesus with a glass of alcohol in His hand while He is our High Priest in Heaven. So the answer to whether a Christian should drink or not is found not in the bible, but in your own heart.
This is why I respect yours or anyone’s opinion on this matter. I’ll repeat over and over again: While I’m not advocating drinking of alcohol (I began and finished the article with this statement), I hope people who have an occasional drink without abusing alcohol, do not feel guilt or shame just because their church condemns it.
I don’t plan on arguing with anyone regarding this issue. I do however encourage the readers of this blog to do their own research and hopefully arrive to their own conclusion on this mater.
George
Hi George,
Thanks for the clarification! I did not accuse you of anything but just expected if anyone decided to scrutinize someone's work in any way, it would be good to do that properly whether you agreed with the author (or speaker) on a particular subject or didn't. Because, you analyzed first part of my sermon accurately (I have to admit that!), but then you just missed some very crucial points when speaking of my remarks about that topic in the New Testament and, even more so, my final conclusions which could have given the readers of your article pretty wrong impression on what I said or didn't say or didn't even think.
I understand that you didn't have the verbatim of my sermon, but since it was your (not mine) decision to start this topic in this particular way, you should have avoided using words or phrases in your article like, "I want to share some of the ideas mentioned by the pastor who preached it, as well as my comments on this topic", or, "Obvious Conclusion so far", or, "Now here comes the twist", and so on and so forth. And especially since you just didn't presented everything I had said which, as I already said, could have made a wrong impression on what I said or didn't say in my sermon. Only that, George. Nothing more. (And I have to say again that I'm really flattered by your decision to analyze one of my sermons here.) :-)
God bless!
Ed, your statements appear only under “Pastor’s Comments”, and even these are not your exact words, but if you don’t like them, I’ll delete them. Everything else besides the bible verses are my own comments. I think the readers understand that. For the parts of your sermon that I missed, which I assure you was not done intentionally; I think you clarified quite well in the follow up.
Thank you once again.
George
George, I enjoyed your post on this topic and I'd just like to add a comment regarding a verse no one has mentioned yet. BTW, I agree with your conclussions. Drinking alcohol is not a sin...though one should be mindful of it's affects on them, and as some of us wrestle with certain weaknesses in our own lives, that doesn't make them sins to everyone else.
Consider Matthew 11:15-19
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear. But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Just thought it might be pertinent.
Blessings!
During the cold winter months the man was in the habit of drinking wine with his meals, and he was
apt to do so to excess. After my departure, with the return of the cold weather, the wine appeared on the
table again, and that day, as he had become accustomed to do, the husband bowed his head to return
thanks for the meal but no words would come. After one or two vain attempts he turned to his wife.
'What is wrong?' he asked. 'Why cannot we pray to-day? Fetch the Bible and see what it has to say
about wine-drinking.' I had left a copy of the Scriptures with them, but though the wife could read she
was ignorant of the Word, and she turned the pages in vain seeking for light on the subject. They did
not know how to consult God's Book and it was impossible to consult God's messenger, for I was many
miles away and it might be months before they could see me. 'Just drink your wine', said his wife.
'We'll refer the matter to brother Nee at the first opportunity.' But still the man found he just could not
return thanks to the Lord for that wine. 'Take it away!' he said at length; and when she had done so,
together they asked a blessing on their meal.
When eventually the man was able to visit Shanghai he told me the story. Using an expression familiar
in Chinese: 'Brother Nee', he said, 'Resident Boss* wouldn't let me have that drink! ' ' Very good,
brother', I said. 'You always listen to Resident Boss!' Many of us know that Christ is our life. We
believe that the Spirit of God is resident in us, but this fact has little effect upon our behaviour. The
question is, do we know Him as a living Person, and do we know Him as Boss '?
i saw that somewher on the net ...can't remeber but i like the concept.
No wine for me even if it's a little wine with my meal cause my conscience says no no, even if it's to smoke one in a while since the bible did not have a say in that. But no no the resident bass says no no
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